NASB is so two years ago
In the book of Ecclesiastes, Solomon says, "I saw that wisdom excels folly... yet I know that one fate befalls them both...Why then have I been extremely wise? So I said to myself, 'This too is futility'." (Ecc. 2:13-15 NASB)
On Kanye West's album College Dropout, he talks about insecurity in his song "Never let me down." He spends the first part of the song condemning black culture for being obsessed with material things. But then he admits that he is just as guilty of it as anybody else.
There has recently been some dissatisfaction expressed from my audience. Some of you (Justin and RuthAnn) haven't liked what I posted about recently. And I want to address this.
The little black letters at the top of the page say, "Welcome to whatever the heck I feel like saying." 'Nuff said.
But, I do realize my last two posts have verged into territory not normally included in my blogdom, so I humbly request to be given a chance to explain myself.
My dissillusionment with religion began sometime around my eigth and ninth grade years. It grew quietly unnoticed for a while, but eventually became to big for me to ignore. I tried abandoning religion for a while, and thus get rid of that nagging feeling something was wrong, but that never really worked for one reason or another. It wasn't until I immersed myself
in my dissillusionment and wrestled with it that I began to find peace.
So now, as I continue to struggle with my issues, whether borne out of my stay in lovely Mortar-itaville, or just out of honest disagreement with my leaders, I refuse to abandon patriotism and politics and social justice because I'm thinking along different lines than other people. I am going to face my dissillusionment, wrestle with it and someday, maybe find some peace.
The funny thing is, though, as much as I try not to care about what other people think of my writing, I'm actually quite obsessed with it. And as much as I pride myself in the fact that I have a relatively unique perspective on religion and life and art, I still think that every one should agree with me.
"I have seen that every labor and every skill which is done is the result of rivalry between a man and his neighbor. This too is futility." (Ecc. 4:4 NASB)
Karl Marx was a genius.
On Kanye West's album College Dropout, he talks about insecurity in his song "Never let me down." He spends the first part of the song condemning black culture for being obsessed with material things. But then he admits that he is just as guilty of it as anybody else.
There has recently been some dissatisfaction expressed from my audience. Some of you (Justin and RuthAnn) haven't liked what I posted about recently. And I want to address this.
The little black letters at the top of the page say, "Welcome to whatever the heck I feel like saying." 'Nuff said.
But, I do realize my last two posts have verged into territory not normally included in my blogdom, so I humbly request to be given a chance to explain myself.
My dissillusionment with religion began sometime around my eigth and ninth grade years. It grew quietly unnoticed for a while, but eventually became to big for me to ignore. I tried abandoning religion for a while, and thus get rid of that nagging feeling something was wrong, but that never really worked for one reason or another. It wasn't until I immersed myself
in my dissillusionment and wrestled with it that I began to find peace.
So now, as I continue to struggle with my issues, whether borne out of my stay in lovely Mortar-itaville, or just out of honest disagreement with my leaders, I refuse to abandon patriotism and politics and social justice because I'm thinking along different lines than other people. I am going to face my dissillusionment, wrestle with it and someday, maybe find some peace.
The funny thing is, though, as much as I try not to care about what other people think of my writing, I'm actually quite obsessed with it. And as much as I pride myself in the fact that I have a relatively unique perspective on religion and life and art, I still think that every one should agree with me.
"I have seen that every labor and every skill which is done is the result of rivalry between a man and his neighbor. This too is futility." (Ecc. 4:4 NASB)
Karl Marx was a genius.
posted by oneweekend at 9:45 PM
17 Comments:
I think rather than call your world view "disallusionment", I would call it a lack of real knowledge of our God and what He wants from us. And some rebellion thrown in to the mix.....Peace only comes when your complete trust and focus is on God. He desires for us to be content in Him, not human philosophies and unsaved musicians.
I know how hard it is to live life "bucking the system", so to speak....it is so much easier to look to God and live.
I think "anonymous" completely missed what you were trying to say. It is hard for me to accept that people have the nerve to measure others' "knowledge of God and what He wants from us."
I know your peace, trust in God, and focus on His will is stronger and more real than any Christian I have met. Thank you for being a genuine, real Christian. Don't let others' judgement deter you from being the person the Lord has molded you to be.
Many a lesser man would have come back from Iraq (i.e. Morta-retaville) a bitter and angry person with substance abuse, but you are only the stronger and closer to God for it. Just because you don't shove it in others' faces and wear it on your sleve doesn't make you wrong.
Sorry to give the impression of criticizing. I'm just pushing for more of the insights that keep me checking your blog every chance I get.
I totally accept (and identify with enough to at least begin to understand) your disillusionment. I wish more people had it. Don't let it consume you, though. I just finished re-reading Searching for God Knows What (thanks), and I was struck yet again by Donald Miller's unique take--hating the church's hypocrisy, loving God honestly, and ignoring the rest. I see the same in you, and I love it. And you.
Oh, and thanks for the allusion. It's good to know that someone reads my blog who can more appropriately frame my verbage.
Yeah, I'm with Justin.
It's just that I like your unique take so much, that I keep hoping you'll give more of it. And to be quite honest, disillusionment is always a good thing, remember? The removing of illusions always brings us closer to the truth. Never be ashamed of being without illusions.
First to anonymous, beware bridges, tree limps, and other low hanging objects as you ride on your high horse.
As I've grown up in the organized religion of independent fundamentalist baptist and now have taken a step back from that somewhat alternate universe, I have come to realize the most overlooked aspects of God's relationship with different human beings is the individuality and uniqueness of said relationships. For you to say someone else lacks a real knowledge of God is quite presumptuous of you. Have you experienced everything Dale has experienced? I'm not just talking about his time served in Iraq. It could be anything. It could be a simple childhood event he only knows about or someone who had a profound impact on his life negatively or positively. The lose of a close friend for no apparent reason is another example.
We all go through different experiences in our lives and a byproduct of that is we all have different relationships with God. To simplify it to, "a lack of real knowledge of our God" or "look to God and live" is naive at best and ignorant at worst. Every man and woman goes through periods of time where God isn't enough. Adam, Noah, David, Solomon, Peter, Jacob, and Moses to name a few biblical examples off the top of my head.
Those who've grown up in Christian Fundamentalism (at least the type I grew up in) are taught everything is black and white. Ignoring the gray is how we get phrases like look to God and live. Makes us feel good and sounds right, but that's on par with breaking down the Republic to "look outside your cave."
I'm beginning to ramble here so I'll finish this unorganized thought with this. I believe it is impossible to have "a real knowledge of our God." Sure we understand the basics and can use him to guide our lives in a certain direction, but most of the concepts are not understandable. That's why I have a problem with someone telling Dale what's wrong with his personal relationship with God. Only Dale and God know the dynamics of their relationship.
Many men of God went through periods of disallusionment, however, that was when they were not living righteously.
Cassiopearl - you are playing word games
Ryan - postmodernism at it's best - truth can only be known by the individual and truth is determined by the individual. Anonymous is not riding a high horse, just relating the truth of Scripture - no matter what Dale or anyone's experiences have been. God will not give a a trial that is beyond what we can handle. There is no excuse for incomplete trust in Him. I cannot say that my faith is perfect, nor is fundamentalism perfect however, blaming one's "disallusionment" on fundamentalism, while listening to Kanye West and Lynard Skynard and reading Karl Marx is ridiculous. Has no one else ever been to a war zone? Has no one else ever dealt with hypocrisy in the church? Dale, you sound as if you have an excuses to seek for fulfillment outside of Christ. "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
Just a thought, everyone. How about we consider the post, not what we want to read into it? Dale said he's wrestling with disillusionment–that he's struggling with issues.
Josh and Anon, don't confuse religion with a relationship with God. Even ultra-fundies say there is a distinction.
I find it funny that you want to blast him for referring to Marx, West, and Skynard (not sure where that came from), but you failed to mention his quotes from the Bible.
Cass's wordgame was just that. But it emphasized a point.
Josh, I'm afraid your claim that men of God are only disillusioned when unrighteous is a selective understanding of Scripture. Ever heard of Job? For more on the topic, continue reading into the Psalms.
Be careful of judging, guys. I've spent a lot of time this week encouraging a girl who was justifiably too afraid of being judged to go back to the church she was saved in.
God never condemns an honest search for truth. And even if Dale's disillusionment were a sign of spiritual weakness, cliched attacks on what you assume to be his understanding of God is only going to reinforce his negative image of fundamentalism. Isn't God good enough to reward his search for truth?
Justin, Job eventually recognized sinful thoughts and attitudes on his part. These sinful thoughts and attitudes did not cause his trial, but the trial forced him to depend solely on God. Dale's references to Marx, Kanye, etc. show a pattern of worldliness in his life. God will not reward a search for truth in these areas. I'm not certain what you mean about the is difference between religion and a relationship with God. They are completely integrated. James makes it clear that a relationship with God goes includes a love for him and a hatred of the world. Dale knows the truth, the truth of Scripture is simple and practical, not some high intellectual gnostic pursuit.
Josh,
It scares me to think that you and your ideas about God might be the closest a lost soul come to knowing about the truth of who God is.
Save this discussion and come back and read it in a few years after your mom has cancer or a close friend dies or YOU get sent to a war zone... Then talk to us when your manufactured christianity fails you and you are forced to search out a personal God instead of the one that has been handed to you by well-meaning, misguided religous followers.
You have no idea. Please be mature enough to realize that you do not have all the answers. Your attacks are unnecessary and damaging.
I am sorry I caused you all to provide such an angry defense of Dale and his "spiritual thinking". In defense of myself, I know him from many years back (not as deeply as some of you do, I understand) but he has always had this mindset as far as I can tell. He has always seemed to question authority, which often leads to discontentment. I am sure his experiences at war have caused much fear, confusion, and concern for the way the government does things. But God is still the same God as before he left.....he still has very definite instructions and promises for Dale's life, that do not change with how he is feeling or how his environment is affecting him.
My concern with the post that started this discussion was that it seems he connects the "wrongs" he sees in fundamentalism with his discontentment. No matter how wrong some fundamentalists are, that does not need to change his trust in God or the depth of his obedience to God's Word. I guess that is what I took out of his post. If he is actually living a fully joyful, peaceful Christian life, trusting in his God....then I am sorry to have misread his intentions. But his mention of seeking for peace made me think that he is not entirely content in God and His promises for our life. As close friends of his, I hope you can be the "positive Christian influences" in his life, so that he will not have to be disallusioned anymore.
P.S. Just for the record, I did not grow up in "strict fundamentalist circles", so my "cliches" that I use as prescriptions for joyful Christian living do not come from the "narrow-minded teaching that I have heard all of my life". (Some fundamental churches are still perplexing to me sometimes. Although so are some alliance churches and community churches and GARB churches, etc., etc.) My comments come from experiencing many trials, let-downs, and general life changes that have caused me to realize that the only thing worth analyzing and discussing is God's Word and what He tells us in it. My peace is dependent on that, and as long as I am willing to focus on that, I can be content. That does not happen every day--but when I give up looking to other sources for my peace, I do find it! God is awesome and faithful.
Dear Josh,
I do not know who you are nor do I need to know. I am writing this comment thoughtfully and carefully. I do not desire to be caustic, accusatory, or hateful in any way. I desire that my response would be a response the Christ might give. I want to word my response in a Christ-like, Christ-loving manner.
Personally, I have not been through half of what Dale has, but I dare say that I have been through quite a bit. I really respect Dale as a friend, a great thinker, and one who is constantly growing in his love for God. I have serious doubts that you know him as well as me or the others who left comments. Josh, What I am about to say I say very respectfully. I feel your comments are harsh, unfounded, and terribly inconsiderate. They also reveal a lack of understanding on your part of post-modernism, Job, Psalms, and what Dale is trying to say. I want to be clear that I value your points as much as I value the others expressed in this dialogue though I strongly disagree.
I just wish to address a few things in your comment(s) that make me concerned for you and some things that may be counterproductive in what you desire to say. You utilized a very harsh tone that does not reflect a love for God or a love for others (Mt. 22:37-40 states that the Bible can be summed up in LOVE GOD & LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF). You also expressed arrogance in the way you presented these comments. You, along with anon, were extremely condescending in your remarks. I feel the only valid argument, however heated it may be, is an argument where both parties agree to learn from the other – this is not present in your remarks. (i.e. Justin calmly refuted your arguments regarding great men of faith going through disillusionment, but you failed to concede any ground.)
You said, “Dale, you sound as if you have an excuses to seek for fulfillment outside of Christ. ‘A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.’" Aside from the poor grammar, I think you are missing the point of James and the gist of Dale’s post. Dale never said this.
You also said, “Dale's references to Marx, Kanye, etc. show a pattern of worldliness in his life. God will not reward a search for truth in these areas.” I am afraid you have no basis on which to base these claims of Dale’s worldliness. I don’t think you understand what he is saying. Need I comment more?
Another quote – “I'm not certain what you mean about the is difference between religion and a relationship with God. They are completely integrated.” Again, aside from the grammar, this statement left me quite perturbed. This is a very dangerous statement to make. I would like to direct you towards all the texts in the Gospels where Jesus addresses the Pharisees, thereby exposing the futility of religion. Jesus rather teaches a relationship. A relational Christianity is not integrated with religion, but is rather the antithesis of religion. I could present many plausible arguments, but I will refrain.
You obviously love certain aspects of James. I would challenge you to read James all the way through several times in one day. (It should only take an hour or so) Disregard the chapter and verse divisions, but rather follow the thoughts. Try reading it in the ESV or NASB, it will help. What you will find is that James argues the converse side of your assertions.
I hope I do not come across arrogant or condescending in any way. I am genuinely concerned for you, not mad. I would also like to direct you to my new blog post called Vignettes. It may help you understand things a little.
In Christ,
Daniel Brier
Justin, just a few comments. I don't have a great deal of time to cover everything. You have written a good post, however I think you have missed a few things.
Thank you for correcting my grammar. I was leaving commments on a blog, not writing formally.
I think that some of us define religion differently. James (and Christianity) is not anti-religion. James is anti- false religion. A religion that is simply in the mind and not revealed in the outward man. Jesus decried this type of religion in the lives of the Pharisees.
I'm not certain where my posts came across as unloving. I try to deal with truth and I hope that the rest of you deal with truth and not with a desire to make Dale feel good because he has had a rough life.
You spoke about a relational Christianity, not a religious one. Once again, I believe they are integrated. God says that we are to love Him by keeping his commandments. One of his commandments is to keep ourselves undefiled by the world. Furthermore, Christ and His word are sufficient alone they do not need to be supplemented by what the world offers when one is looking for satisfaction.
Justin said that God never condemns an honest search for truth. I'm not sure that this statement is biblical, but I would revise it to say that God would not bless a search for truth that included Marx, etc.
Josh,
How do you know that the opinions you are sharing and expecting Dale to live up to are truth? How is your interpretation of truth and rightness any truthier than Dale's?
Just some thoughts
Cloverboy, I think you are starting to get to the heart of the matter - and we are back to postmodernism. The idea that there really isn't any absolute truth, truth is "in the eye of the beholder". I believe that absolute truth exists and that it can be known by many different individuals in the same way and at the same time. I think if you read through the previous comments here, you will see that the only absolute truth that most here agree on, is that Dale is free to search for truth anywhere he wants and that if he finds something he likes, then it is his "truth" and anyone who disagrees doesn't understand truth as Dale understands it. . .and it goes on and on.
Josh, I wouldn't totally agree with the last half of your comment, but I agree that this is the heart of the matter. I think this needs to be explored a little more thoroughly. Great job cutting through to the core of what we are arguing about. Thanks.
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